Monday, November 18, 2019

The Sin of Sodom and the Meshech Chochma

Its clear that ancient sources place the sin of Sodom as more broadly about hospitality and stinginess, not wanting to share their good fortune.

As Robert Kaiser reminds us:
"Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabiants were uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and outsiders. Saying "God killed them because they were gay" is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject."
For proof, consider the following texts:
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Ezekiel 16:46-50 This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a If one wounded his neighbor they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for [performing the service] of bloodletting... If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a coin upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized the coins, and refused to accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his[coin]
Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer: Rabbi Ze era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt... Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven... Rabbi Joshua... said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked... Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire
Ramban: ... [in] the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy - since this sin represented their usual behavior more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.
Mendel Hirsch: Boundless selfishness, greed for profits, misuse of power in service of their own interests on the part of those in authority and greed for lucre in all classes of the people, the oppression of the defenseless widows and orphans was what made the prophet give the people the resounding appellation of "the Lords of Sodom and the people of Gomorrah."
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In short, the sin of Sodom was not the sin of Ellen, but the sin of Trump and McConnell and others like them who do too little to protect the vulnerable or defend the rights of the innocent
Comments
  • Stav Appel So, I am sympathetic to this reading...and I agree their crime was not 'homosexality' but we can't totally ignore the story of the crowd demanding access to Lot's guests for sexual purposes. I would offer their real sin was sadism - that they only could find joy in causing pain to others. And the greed you describe above is yet another facet of this sadism.
    Hide 25 Replies
    • Moshe Smith It doesn't actually say in the verse that the crowd wanted to sodomize them. That's a (famous) interpretation but its flawed
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    • Stav Appel I just re-read Genesis 19. Seems pretty clear. Why else did he offer his daughters instead of the guests? The verb 'to know' is a pretty consistent metaphor for sex. What am I missing ?
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    • Noam Shachak Even if they wanted to rape them, which I hear in the text, the issue is not homosexuality, the issue is the demand to rape the guests the moment they are discovered.
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    • Moshe Smith 1) to know isnt a metaphor. It's a euphemism.

      2) ramban says they wanted to know their identity so they could be driven out of town if they were in violation of the no guest rule
      See More
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    • Noam Shachak I agree with Rav leibtag that lot didn't seriously offer his daughters ("i may as well give you my daughter") but I do think they wanted to rape them and that was the issue. Also it's funny how lot offers his daughters to other men and then gets them in the end
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    • Moshe Smith Stav Appel Aryeh Sklar ^^
    • Moshe Smith Leibtag via Ramban says he was giving musser
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      Lot's statement must be understood in light of the crowd's reaction. Note how the crowd responds to Lot's 'offer':
      See More
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    • Aryeh Sklar Moshe Smith But you think that's pshat enough to write "it doesn't actually say in the verse..." when clearly that is the most obvious read and how most meforshim understand the words?

      That's besides the comparison to the end of Shoftim, where the rape interpretation is nigh-inescapable.
    • Moshe Smith 1) I think reading "to know" in this verse as sexual is an interpretation. It's not necessarily what the words mean

      2) I dont know that most mephorshim take "to know" as sexual but I do know that the consensus of jewish sources (onkelos, avot, PdE, neviim rishonim) is that the sin of sodom was not sexual Aryeh Sklar
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    • Aryeh Sklar I would call this a majority:

      Pseudo Jonathan: וּנְשַׁמֵשׁ עִמְהוֹן


      Rashi: בְּמִשְׁכַּב זָכָר

      Ibn Ezra: כנוי לשכיבה

      Bechor Shor: לולי כי אמר לוט הנה נא לי שתי בנות וגו' הייתי אומר כי לא היו מבקשים אותם כי אם לידע אם הם מרגלים או אנשים רעים וגנבים אבל מתשובתו של לוט שאמר הנה נא לי שתי בנות יש להבין כי לעבירה היו תובעין אותן להעליל בהן:

      Chizkuni: למשכב זכר. כמו והאדם ידע את חוה אשתו, ועוד מתשובתו של לוט שאמר הנה נא לי שתי בנות יש להבין שלדבר עבירה היו תובעים אותם להתעלל בהן.

      Radak: ונדעה אותם, מי הם... ויש מפרשים ידיעת, משכב זכור:

      Ralbag: במשכב זכור

      Rashbam: משכב זכור

      Shadal: לא שכל העם יתעללו בהם, אלא להתחזק עליהם לבלתי יימלטו מידם, או לשמוח ולעלוז בחרפתם וצערם של אורחים וייתכן שגם ביניהם היו אנשי העיר עושים הנבלה הזאת איש אל רעהו
    • Moshe Smith Ok, thanks for that: Still, the consensus of jewish sources (onkelos, avot, PdE, neviim rishonim) is that the sin of sodom that cuased the destruction was not sexual
    • Aryeh Sklar Now, there is a contingent (including the first position of Radak, Meshech Chochma, the Tur Haruch) that state it means to know if they were spies, etc. Meshech Chochma says he offered his daughters for the crowd to see that he was looking for grooms for them, and that is why the people were in his house. Interesting.
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    • Moshe Smith Where are you seeing this? Also, see Leibtag above
    • Aryeh Sklar You wrote:

      Still, the consensus of jewish sources (onkelos, avot, PdE, neviim rishonim) is that the sin of sodom that cuased the destruction was not sexual


      As Shadal points out, these are not mutually exclusive ideas. He thinks they raped people to keep all strangers away from their town. As in, it was an expression of their lack of empathy/hospitality toward strangers.
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    • Aryeh Sklar Moshe Smith Seeing what?
    • Moshe Smith This great collection of sources
    • Aryeh Sklar Me, looking at the verse in a Mikraout Gedolot, and then copying from Sefaria.
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    • Moshe Smith Good stuff.
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    • Aryeh Sklar Thanks
    • Stav Appel grea comments. learning a lot. not sure I agree..but I agree it's not as cut and dry as claimed
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    • Aryeh Sklar Just to round out the sources, I'll point out that the Midrashim generally see the demand to know them as meaning sexual intercourse.

      Genesis Rabba 26:5 (and see Leviticus Rabba 23:9): רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בַּר לֵוִי בְּשֵׁם פְּדָיָה אָמַר כָּל אוֹתוֹ הַ
      לַּיְלָה הָיָה לוֹט מְבַקֵּשׁ רַחֲמִים עַל הַסְּדוֹמִיִּים וְהָיוּ מְקַבְּלִין מִיָּדוֹ, כֵּיוָן שֶׁאָמְרוּ לוֹ (בראשית יט, ה): הוֹצִיאֵם אֵלִינוּ וְנֵדְעָה אֹתָם לְתַשְׁמִישׁ, אָמְרוּ לוֹ (בראשית יט, יב): עֹד מִי לְךָ פֹה לְלַמֵּד סָנֵגוֹרְיָא עֲלֵיהֶם, מִכָּאן וָאֵילָךְ אֵין לְךָ לְלַמֵּד עֲלֵיהֶם סָנֵגוֹרְיָא.

      Numbers Rabba 20:22 (and see Tanahuma Balak 17): וַיָּחֶל הָעָם לִזְנוֹת, יֵשׁ מַעְיָנוֹת שֶׁמְּגַדְּלִין גִּבּוֹרִים, וְיֵשׁ חַלָּשִׁים, וְיֵשׁ נָאִין, וְיֵשׁ מְכֹעָרִין, וְיֵשׁ צְנוּעִין, וְיֵשׁ שְׁטוּפִין בְּזִמָּה, וּמַעְיָן שִׁטִּים שֶׁל זְנוּת הָיָה, וְהוּא מַשְׁקֶה לִסְדוֹם, אַתָּה מוֹצֵא שֶׁאָמְרוּ (בראשית יט, ה): אַיֵּה הָאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר בָּאוּ אֵלֶיךָ הוֹצִיאֵם אֵלֵינוּ וגו',

      Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer 25:11: ראה אותם אחד מאנשי העיר ורץ והגיד לכל אנשי העיר ונקבצו כלם אל פתח הבית לעשות כמנהגם משכב זכור כנשים, שנאמר ויקראו אל לוט ויאמרו לו.
    • Moshe Smith PdE says stingy. See the OP.
    • Aryeh Sklar Read the quote. The ultimate sin or hallmark of Sodom may have been stinginess, but in this instance, the story tells us they desired to rape Lot's guests.

      And, again, it isn't a contradiction, as Shadal tells us.
So anyway, that Meshech Chochma is kinda wild. Basically, he interprets "to know" literally, to understand if they are spies or what their wishes are. Lot then offers his daughters to them, ostensibly (Meshech Chochma doesn't quite fill this in) to show them that hey, I have daughters here who have known no men and I am trying to find people to marry them. And those are these two guys. So leave us alone. (It is indeed interesting to note that it was two angels, and two daughters, so this story happens to work out).

This is his language:

הוציאם אלינו ונדעה אותם פירוש נדע כל מאווייהם וחפציהם אם רוצים לרגל את הארץ וזה שאמר הנה נא לי ש"ב כו' כי על כן באו בצל קורתי פירוש על כן בשביל הבנות להתחתן אתם באו האנשים הנה בצל קורתי.

Rabbi Kooperman in the notes section to the modern Meshech Chochma asks a good question - the Meshech Chochma has not explained why Lot says "And do whatever you want with them" - i.e., to rape his daughters.

My initial answer is that "do whatever you want" means to interrogate them as to why the men are here, or, perhaps even worse, to examine his daughters for virginity (since that was sometimes done back then).

I even considered whether Meshech Chochma agrees with Ramban that it was meant to be a piece of mussar, and not to actually offer his daughters. So he gives an explanation and says "Hey, you want to marry them instead"??

But ultimately, I think Meshech Chochma is just trying to make sense of Lot's offer, which seems crazy cruel, and perhaps not all the pieces work.


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